The Skeptic Metaphysicians

David Jackson  
Hey, welcome to the podcast review show where we bring someone on and find out what they're doing right so they can do more of that and then find out those things that might need just a little bit of polishing. I'm Dave Jackson from the School of podcasting.com. And joining me as always, you know him as the pod to the podcast talent coach, the one and only Eric K. Johnson. Eric, how are you, buddy?

Erik K. Johnson  
Hey, Dave, good to see you again. Back in the saddle. Can't wait to get back at another fantastic show here, where we bring a podcaster on chat about their podcast, help them find the things they're doing right because we love to help you do more of the good stuff. And tonight, we have will the skeptic metaphysician on tonight. Thanks for the nice long six syllable word there. We'll welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for being here.

Will  
Thanks for having me. You're my pleasure. I'm not always happy to make things more difficult than they have to be.

Erik K. Johnson  
I need to remember metaphysician for Scrabble or Words with Friends. I'm sure that's gonna be I'm gonna get lots of points on that one. Well, tell us a little bit about the show and who it's for what you do on the show.

Will  
So I'm the I'm the producer and host. I do have a co host. We do this thing together. We build it as metaphysics one on one. It's really a show about metaphysics, all things metaphysics, supernatural, paranormal, esoteric stuff, but from the ground level. So those people that are maybe interested in metaphysics, but don't know a whole lot about it, or are curious about whether this stuff is real or not, and don't know where to turn and where to look. When I was first learning about this stuff. Walking into a metaphysical bookstore was really daunting. It was nerve wracking as heck. So this is kind of an entry point. For those that want to learn about metaphysics, all different modalities. Each episode usually focuses on one particular modality. And then the conversation launches from there. But but we like to keep things very practical. We're not really we do go into the woowoo of it all sometimes. But I'll you do.

Erik K. Johnson  
We'll get to that.

David Jackson  
You have some some what was coming in the future here? Yes,

Will  
there are some moves on it. But I, I've always been kind of pragmatic. I can't, I can't just buy stuff. Just because someone says it's real, I need to find a way to wrap my head around it. But I've got to either see it or touch it or know it's there in some way, shape, or form. So we talk a lot about quantum mechanics and things like that, that help explain some stuff because my co host is much more of a wow, tell me more where I'm much more like, know for sure you're not just dreaming this stuff.

Erik K. Johnson  
You're the skeptic of the skeptic metaphysician so far. Before we jump into your show here. Well, for the layman, tell me kind of define metaphysics for me what it is and what it is not.

Will  
metaphysics is everything that's out there that is unexplainable by scientific means that you can't for sure, although the CIA has tried for a long time, you can't for sure prove that astral projection, for example, is real. So we use metaphysics in a term. That means anything that is helping you reach spiritual, new spiritual heights, by using means that are outside the norm. So astral projection, Reiki energy healing past lives, past life regressions, near death experiences, anything that has to do with that type of world that we dive into it. Cool.

Erik K. Johnson  
Very good. All right, Dave.

David Jackson  
All right. I have one question. So does your audience know what Reiki energy is already?

Will  
I would say most of the people that listen to the show do know what it is, but we tried to explain it in a way that someone who doesn't know can then learn about it.

Erik K. Johnson  
No, it's not my electric company, Reiki energy. Check.

Will  
If it's not, it should be.

David Jackson  
Alright, so we're gonna play the opening of the show here. And this is kind of lengthy in a way, but not really, but because you've got a story and some things like that, but so we're gonna kick back and listen to the opening of the show. And it goes a little something like this.

Will  
Karen, I gotta ask you. Have you heard about people who are going through spiritual awakenings and that their life just doesn't make sense. And it's just it just seems so much more difficult in the point where they almost feel like they're having a breakdown of some sort. Well,

Unknown Speaker  
I mean, that's my life usually. But there's no spiritual awakening happening. So I'm missing something.

Will  
Well, today we're going to talk to someone who experienced something just like that her spiritual awakening was so profound, that she actually left everything behind to go on the spiritual journey to try to make heads or tails out of what she was going through. Really exciting.

Unknown Speaker  
Wow, that's so brave. I don't know that I would have the courage to do that. Yeah,

Will  
she's she's traveled all over the world in this spiritual journey. She ended up in Bali, Indonesia, where she really opened up to her spiritual gifts. Now, the spiritual gifts I'm talking about, like she has a channel on medium, a healer, and she works with spirit and energy to help others emotionally, energetically, physically and spiritually. How She Does this is really interesting because she serves as a vessel for healing and a bridge to connect with spirit through help. From source energy and her spirit, her guides, she's what she calls spirit family 24. We'll get into that in a second, right. And she also channels those in the spirit realm who want to come through and assist in it as well. She's traveled to Costa Rica to London, Berlin, Istanbul, Egypt, Bali, and back to the US twice within a year's time and 2020. Yes, yeah, her story is absolutely fascinating. And I've had the pleasure of sitting in on some of her first initial sessions that she offered to folks while she was trying to kind of wrap her mind around what she was experiencing. And I am thrilled to have her on the show. Jennifer Foster, thank you so much for coming on. My name is Wil and I like molder from The X Files want to believe. So I've embarked on a journey of discovery. I've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual and metaphysical worlds. I've thrown myself into weird and wonderful experiences. I've even joined a coven of witches, all in interest of finding something, anything that will prove there's something beyond this physical three dimensional world we all live in. This is the skeptic metaphysician. Hey, everyone, welcome back to another yet another Karen, another episode of the skeptic metaphysician. I can't believe how many we've done so far, this was just a kind of a fun thing for a while. But now Holy smokes, you know,

Unknown Speaker  
it's really grown.

David Jackson  
So that's the first two minutes and change of the show. Eric, I'll let you go first.

Erik K. Johnson  
The recorded open where you tell me what the show was all about. I really enjoyed, I thought that it really laid out the show nicely. I like the little reference to a molder in the X Files. That kind of, you know, tells me who we're talking about. And that we're all kind of in the same boat, we all are swimming in the same direction. I like that. The thing that frustrated me is it took us two minutes to get there. We did a lot of show before we actually got to the show open. And you can't catch up to a fast start. So make sure you're hooking your audience right from the get go. I suppose from the title, the the skeptic metaphysician, they kind of know what we're getting into. But you start right into it. And having listened to it now, three times, I still don't know who Karen is because you you don't introduce Karen, she's not in the show open. You talk about you and your skepticism. But Karen is just kind of like along for the ride. And so I really, I'm really I don't know if she's just sitting in on this episode, or if she's a co host, or I'd like to hear a little more about what her story is and why she's along for the ride. But I thought you did a nice job in the recorded introduction, telling me what it's all about. So it helps me understand the show. It just took a minute to get there. And then right after that, right where Dave, cut it off, we came back in and you did a nice job teasing what's coming up in the in the interview and what we talked to this lady all about. So I liked the content of the intro. I just wish it was a little tighter and a little shorter and got me to the recorded one a little faster.

David Jackson  
Well, since you brought it up here is that great tease that you're talking about.

Will  
Jennifer was kind enough to give me a session where her spirit family came through and answered some questions. She actually sent me they sent me a healing which was on believable, and we'll talk about that in a second. But then on top of that she actually was able to channel people that I know. And he was literally like I was talking to them. Wow, it was fascinating.

David Jackson  
And you're right. Karen is very good at Wow. And holy cow. She did that in the intro to the thing that I want when I listen to an opening if you're trying to hook me in any kind of because you're trying to give the guests some some street cred. And so you twice mentioned how much she traveled. And I realized that Bali is like the Oh, she went to Bali in the spiritual world. But I just wasn't sure that I was like, Well, I was gonna listen. But, you know, like, to me that was like, how would I cut that down? I would cut out some of her. I mean, really what you just said right there, that little tease would have been enough. And the other thing is and I realized that that you're in a kind of a different space than I am like when you start off and you say, Hey Karen, have you ever met somebody who's going through a spiritual healing or spiritual awakening, and blah, blah, blah? And I'm like, is that like a thing? Like, where part is like, oh, who hasn't had one of those? And I was like, so if you're, if you're trying to get your audience to go, Yeah, I do that all the time. I was like, maybe that's more, you know, people that are more spiritual, maybe that is a like regular occurrence. Like, oh, who doesn't who hasn't had a spiritual awakening, they're so annoying. Sometimes you're in the middle of something. And oh, another spiritual awakening. So that was something I thought, I'm not sure. But in your group, and the people that listen to this, that probably is common,

Erik K. Johnson  
that little loop that you open there and the T's that second part that that Dave played, it opens a nice loop where we're going to close it later on in the episode, a little of that at the beginning, in that first two minutes, they're open that loop tell people what they're going to get, make them want to stick around to close that loop later in the episode. But a little bit goes a long way. We don't need to roll out her entire life story in there. Just give me a little bit, grab me by the shirt collar and go, come on, we're going on a ride and pull me it

Will  
will I am such a big fan of yours that I've actually listened to a lot of your shows, I subscribe to the shows. And I've learned all that stuff that you just said. So that the most recent episodes, I think you will find are much more concise. At the very beginning, we actually change the intro to include Karen on the on the thing and so so originally Funny enough, Karen called herself the robin of the skeptic metaphysician. If you remember, Howard Stern, stern Sure, you had a sidekick named Robin who did the whales in the halls and all that kind of stuff. She referred to her as a Robin, of the skeptic and physicians. And I wasn't real keen on that. So we made her a full time co host. And now we do introduce the show together. So that makes more sense. So I do appreciate that. And she

Erik K. Johnson  
does throughout the episode as well here, she has a lot of great stuff to offer. And she has a great role on the show. So I love her there. I just, I'm glad that you're incorporating her in the intro. And say I'm gonna interrupt you right here, we're gonna make this an edit point, when you go to your left, you go away from your microphone and your audio drops. So you're gonna have to move that mic in front of you or stop looking here.

David Jackson  
I will move you guys over you are now you're here,

Erik K. Johnson  
your audio goes up when you're looking at your mic and it goes down. When you go away from your mic and you go to edit this, you're gonna go What the heck is going on with that

David Jackson  
what happened

Erik K. Johnson  
was like a rubber ball

David Jackson  
as much as the SM seven B is kind of like, oh, what's the Michael Jackson Joe Rogan thing? I've got the super stop the pop thing on it. I can pop this thing like No, I'm not ready to go back to my carry whatever I had, because I liked the sound of this microphone, but I hate having to worry about like normally I'm about here. And I don't want to do that on this mic because I will pop the crap out of it. So yeah, thank you for letting me know because you were saving.

Erik K. Johnson  
Mikey just got to work it right. Yeah.

David Jackson  
Well, that's because I'm sitting here looking at timestamps and I got a lot of stuff going on back here. Awesome. Okay. And now I've forgotten your coat. Oh, Karen right Cyrano's because a

Erik K. Johnson  
minute so you can find that edit.

David Jackson  
So speaking of Karen, one of the things that Eric kind of noticed, let me play this quick clip. And you'll see where the Karen and your guests sound similar.

Unknown Speaker  
I was physically feeling the energy. And that's something that was always reassuring throughout the process, even when it was strange.

Unknown Speaker  
So when all of this was going on, and you're hearing these voices, and you're having this awakening, did it have any sort of physical repercussions? Did you get headaches? I mean, I think that just kind of freaked me out a little bit.

David Jackson  
So first things first, that's a great question. You asked some really good questions along the way. That's the one thing that I, I liked about it, but I didn't notice it until Eric kind of noticed that I was like, they didn't sound like twins. But they definitely there. It wasn't like, you know, Lucille Ball, who's down here. And I'm Lucy, and then you know, some other female with a super high voice or whatever. So

Erik K. Johnson  
it happens. It's not just with females, it's any multi show multi voice show. People will forget which, who, who's, who's who, what, especially when you're new to the show, which name goes to which voice? And so I try and use Dave's name a lot. I try and use wills name a lot. That way when you start talking people go oh, that's wills voice. Oh, that's Dave's voice. Oh, it's Eric talking now. And so when you bring on regardless of who it is, because you're doing a three person show, your guest is always going to match one of the two of you. So if it's a male on your show, Karen should be using your ain't his name a lot, because we all know who Karen is. But when it's a female on your show, you should be using Karen's name a lot, and your guests name a lot. So we can differentiate between the voices,

Will  
what's great feedback, and one I hadn't even considered or thought of. So thank you.

David Jackson  
The beauty of the guest was this, what to me, one of the key ingredients of a great podcast is when you're getting information that you can't get anyplace else. And so I just labeled this button. Whoo. So we were talking about this earlier. And here's some Whoo. And

Unknown Speaker  
so I was able to distinguish that this is me, and it's outside of me. And when I say it is me, it's partially because my Higher Selves on board are my own soul is part of the equation here. And so I hear now, my higher self speak to me in the same way that I hear my other guide, my main guide, adrionna, speak to me, which was also really challenging to understand.

David Jackson  
And I didn't clip it out. But one of the things I loved about this, so here she's talking, she's literally talking about voices in her head where I could see some people like, and I think it was you that asked, like, how do you how do you tell them apart? Is this audible? Is it inside? Like, because there's a part of you that's like, okay, she just said that. And I now understand because to me, when I was listening to this, I was like, this is really cool. That will is just like there's no snickering, there's no giggling you, you create a very safe place for people to to share their story. That's one

Erik K. Johnson  
of my Dave, I'm glad you brought that up. That is one of my favorite things about the show will is that you're skeptical, but you're not cynical. Like you're not, you're not here trying to be the guy that proves it all false, you want to believe. And I can genuinely feel that as you talk to your guests, like, help me understand because I want to believe this is true. I want to believe there's another side, I want to believe there's another world I want to believe all of this stuff. I'm just not sure I do. So what's the deal. And I love that about your show. It's not mean spirited at all. You're not coming at it cynically, it i i love that about your approach to it. And Karen's as well, you're both coming in, like truly curious, and you want to learn. And I think that's a really nice touch that's easily overlooked in a show like this. Thank you.

David Jackson  
I actually have a clip here. And I just put it down as I just labeled it compassion. And it's you stepping into the shoes of your guest.

Will  
People felt that you were not yourself anymore, that you were going off the deep end your your marriage dissolved your it just seems terrifying. Like I'm putting myself in your position. If I could never,

Unknown Speaker  
and you're doing all this banking on the fact that you're not going crazy, right? You know that this is learning to do, right?

David Jackson  
And so that clip also shows that you obviously you take this very seriously and you're trying to understand what's going on, but there's always this ever so light flavor to it. I love in the middle somewhere where she was saying something you said. So you're saying there's a chance you're saying I got a shot. And I was like are these he's quoting Dumb and Dumber. So he's keeping things fun that way. But that was one thing I just noticed because I was listening to this going, I can see where a lot of people, especially, you know, the skeptic, like Eric said, like, Hey, come on in and put this bullseye right on your forehead. It's like that's just not the case at all. So, one, one clip here, we have here have a question you ask, and you do something that I am famous for, which is I will set up a question. And then or No, I will ask the question, and then explain to you why I just asked the question. So that by the time you go to answer it, you can't remember what the question is. So here's an example of that.

Will  
Well, they all say that spiritual awakening is not for the faint of heart is it's a struggle, right? It is every birth is difficult. Whether it's physical birth or spiritual birth, when you we go through a rebirth, it is challenging and tough. And really, it's uncomfortable when you're talking about hearing these voices. Are you actually hearing the voices were there in your mind? Because I've always questioned I've always wondered, well, I've heard people say that they've heard voices before. But like when I hear your voice to my headphones right now, I I can identify that it's coming to my auditory canals and going to my brain and it's being translated. Is that how you heard it? Or was it more like a telepathic type of hearing?

David Jackson  
So that was actually a setup? Question. Set up question, I think is how that rolled out.

Erik K. Johnson  
Well, when Dave does that, he hears me in his head saying, set up the question and then ask it because you start offering options and you start offering multiple choice answers for the question. And it takes away the spontaneity and the Oh, wow, I didn't see that coming from your guests answer. And one of your options may not be one that they would have selected. So what it's difficult to do in the heat of the moment, but kind of figure out, how am I going to set up the question and then end by asking it that way, your guest can can fully embrace the question and give you a great answer. Don't be scared of the gap of space that happens when you do it that way, between the end of your question, and the beginning of their answer, that little pregnant pause, will get your audience to lean in and anticipate the answer that's coming. So if you were to say, you know, well, when I'm listening to you talk, I'm hearing you in my headphones. It's all odd. I mean, I can tell you, apart from Dave, you have a different timbre of your voice, all of that good stuff. When I'm hearing voices in my head, what am I hearing, when you're hearing those voices? Are they? Are they audible? Or is it just some mystical thing? What does it sound like?

Will  
That makes makes great sense. And that thing is probably just the product of my just stream of consciousness, right? So I'm asking all these questions, and then they go, but you know, just to clarify that, but then then ask the question again, because, oh, crap, I just went in this big long dissertation. And I don't know if she knows what the main question was. So I go on it and

Erik K. Johnson  
it can get scary, because you'll ask the question, and then stop and then think, did she understand what I'm trying to get at? Trust that she does. And if she doesn't understand it, she'll ask for clarification. And then you can set it up, ask it again, and then go edit out that first time you asked it, nobody will know any different. That's the great thing about recording it rather than going live is that you can go back and and you can edit out the part where you screwed it up the first go round, and you give it another shot.

Will  
I do that already.

Erik K. Johnson  
It takes some guts because it takes some guts to go. Oh, crud, I hope. I hope she understood what I'm asking her. Because it didn't sound really clear in my head.

David Jackson  
Yeah, and especially if you walk into an awkward pause. And a lot of times, there's a pause, because you asked a question like, I don't know, what did that feel like? And there's this awkward pause because they're thinking about it. And then you go, Well, was it happy? Were you sad, and you started giving them multiple choice, and they're like, I'm gonna go with C, I was upset and frustrated. And I go, if you just let them think about it, usually what's on the other side of that awkward pause is, is a really good answer, because they got to think about it. And so that's, again, easier said than done. I was playing with that I was recently in an event and just playing with people. I'm like, let's do an awkward pause. And it's really awkward. Even if you know, it's a play like this is a practice awkward, pause it just sit there like, shouldn't somebody be saying something now?

Erik K. Johnson  
So I was reviewing a show for a client the other day, and he asked a great question. And he was talking about the guy lost his job. And they went through that whole thing. And he goes, What did that feel like? And the guy sat there for a second and he just goes Oh, and then he answered, and it was like, that was like, What a great reaction to the question. And and that wouldn't have happened. Had he jumped in with a bunch of options.

Will  
No, it makes sense. And that's probably one of my biggest one of my biggest weaknesses. I have many. But Garin always get on me because I do I can't stand the awkward silence. So I or any silence, so I sometimes she'll be asking questions, she takes a pause to answer it No, reiterate the question. She's a

Erik K. Johnson  
Wilson now you're gonna start hearing Karen's voice in your head every time.

David Jackson  
And just remember, you can always edit those out. But for me, I like to leave them in because it kind of in the theater of the mind, the the audience kind of hears the fact that while they had to really they must be thinking about it, because there's there's nothing going on. And the next button I have here is it's not well, let's just play and we'll talk about it.

Unknown Speaker  
And so I was channeling him Reiner to his wife, and it was beautiful. And I had no idea that was an ability that I had, right it just they didn't tell me it you know, and part of my conversation was that would have been nice to know.

David Jackson  
Right? I remember when I brought this up, it's again just another example of a seriously like, okay, she's talking about not just channeling and if I understand this, right, this is the one thing that I I kind of I think I got it. But I didn't hear anybody say it blatantly. She sounds like the person she's channeling Is that correct?

Will  
She not just sounds, but her mannerisms, her demeanor, everything changes. Like she actually when she did it for me, she channeled my, my deceased brother in law. And it was like I was talking to the guy, right? This is a totally different the way she held herself the way she spoke, her mannerisms, everything was very different. Yeah, wow. Yeah. No, it's it was it was crazy. Like, I still have to have a hard time wrapping my head around it sometimes well,

David Jackson  
and for me, that's when this really like, took off. Like, that's when I leaned in, is because again, you're the skeptic. And when you start talking about this, and it was like, whoa, hold on a second. So here's a quick, we got a couple of clips of that, to

Will  
your point with your healing stuff, right? Everyone knows I'm the skeptic in the bunch here. When you and I had a session, one of the first things he did was was offer healing, which I graciously accepted, and we just we relaxed to close your eyes, and there was an absolute energy transference that came into my body. Now, I've asked myself this question many times since then. And the question is, could it not have been just me kind of like expecting, okay, he, she's healing me now. So I'm going to expect something's going to happen? And the answer is sure, anything's possible. But the difference is, I'd never experienced this energy before, in this way. So it's not something that my mind would have come up with, in my mind, in my thought process, I would never have expected it to be like this in I'm a Reiki energy practitioner. So I'm familiar with energy transferences. But this was different.

Unknown Speaker  
So what did it feel like? Like for someone getting that energy?

Will  
What did that it is impossible to explain is impossible describe? It is one of these things where, at the moment that she started, and it was almost instant, it was a being filled? Yeah, I know. It's weird. It's you. I was I was being filled. And it started from my root chakra. And and then it moved up, it was just like, wow, remember, I'm the scientists here, right? I'm always like me, I am salutely felt this energy.

David Jackson  
And for me, that was like, I think my favorite part of the as much as your guest was amazing. That's the part that I was like, Okay, I get what she does. But now let's get a firsthand like, you know, explaining of what actually happens, Eric, your thoughts.

Erik K. Johnson  
I love the fact that you say now I'm the skeptic of the bunch. Everyone knows I'm the skeptic of the bunch. Nice role play there. So we you know, I'm new to the show, I didn't know you were the skeptic of the bunch. So that kind of helps me play along, like who's on first, I love that part of it. And as you go through it, and you talk about, you're the scientist of the part, you know, and but you're trying to believe on this other, this metaphysical side, I love that whole dynamic, it really helps us get to know you as a host. And that's difficult to do when you're interviewing somebody, because we're so focused on the guest. And we want to bring the guest bring their story out, talk about them, what makes them so special. And we don't want to take the spotlight away from them. But we need to find little spaces like this for us to tuck in, and show our own personality and let the listeners get to know who we are and what we're all about. And I thought you did a really nice job here, without taking too long to do it. We got to know you a little bit. And I liked that about this particular exchange.

Will  
We like to feel like we like to build like, like a conversation that you're having in your living room. Right? We're just sitting around having a cup of coffee talking about stuff. And we get to know each other. And that's basically that's how we want it to make feel. So many shows out there that that do the same topic are so dry, like well, now we're going to talk about chakras. And as I just I can't. So we try to keep it light. We laugh with each other all the time. We poke fun of ourselves, but in a good natured way. And we do we just have a conversation. We've got to plan out what we're going to ask. But we allow the conversation to go in different directions that we didn't, we didn't expect it to go and that's, it's what's fun for us because it surprises us every time.

David Jackson  
And then we have the payoff pitch in a way for me if you I'll date myself, but if you remember Siskel and Ebert, right, these are movie reviewers. And we're really just looking to say like, did they liked the movie? Or did they not? So here, you're a skeptic, it's like, okay, what was your decision on this? And you had a great line. I was like, oh, that's, that's, it's so cool.

Will  
I can't save with 100% certainty that I understand what it is that you do or how you do it. Or if it's even something that's just it's that's just a psychological thing that's happening. All I can say is that After our session, I was shaken. I was shaken. And that doesn't happen to me often.

David Jackson  
So when I heard that I was like, that was a it's kind of vulnerable. In a way. It's personal. I was just like, that's because that's what I was tuning in for. Right? It's like, okay, so what's after will have spoken with this guest? What's the Jerry Springer at the end? Right? What did we learn today? And when I heard that, I was like, Oh, that was amazing. Eric, I know, you would put a comment on that as well.

Erik K. Johnson  
Yeah. Are you in? Or are you out? And that really helped us get to understand kind of the crux of the entire interview, right? This is why she's here because you want to decide, am I a believer? Or am I not a believer, and this kind of right here was the whole thing. And what I thought when I heard this, so this is where I mean, we're, we're nearly an hour into this conversation, we're about 50 minutes into it. And if I were to pull anything out of the episode for a tease up front to like, give people a taste of what's coming, I would have put this upfront, like, because if I heard you go, after all is said and done. I was literally shaken after this thing. And you put that up front, I'm going holy crud, what just happened? I got to figure out what that was all about. Now I sit through 45 minutes of an interview, to get to that point. This is like, if we're watching a movie, this is the climax of the movie. This is the gunfight at the end. This is you know, Superman saves the world right here. Let's let's use that to set up the episode because this is where I went. Okay, now I get it. It's it's what everybody was here for.

David Jackson  
The other thing I liked about it was you gave yourself a little wiggle room. Like I can't say 100%. But I do thought that was cool. But it was enough of a tip of the hat, shall we say, to go? This? So I love the fact because right now, it doesn't matter. I don't want to bring up politics. But there are just people that are this is this is the answer. There is no other answer. This is it. I mean, and I was just in Nashville, and they were very much this is what you need to think. So I love the fact that you are kind of like, you know, this is one of the thing but this is so just a hint. I used to say I would listen to Rush Limbaugh if he said just one thing that was remotely, you know, not so great about the Republican Party. Or if I go with the woman on TBS, whose name I can't remember right now she's super left. And I was like, if you guys just would hint. At the other side. I might listen, because I might think you're you're giving me a fair shot on either one. And I just thought that with this clip, I thought, yeah, this is he's not here. Like you said earlier. Eric, he's not here to just, that's a bunch of hooey. It's like now I'm open to learn here. So I thought, yeah,

Erik K. Johnson  
I don't think any episode will be 100%. Yep, I'm all in or, or nope, I'm out. But every episode should have you leaning one way or another, you know, in this episode seems to be like, well, you know, what, I'm another step closer to believing or this guy is just full of nonsense. Like, I'm not sure this is really legit. You know, but, but you're not all in and you're not all out on any of them, which keeps people coming back for the next episode to see if this is to see if this is the one that pushes you over the line.

Will  
Right? Yeah, there was one guy specifically I can think of off top my head that was like that, that at the end of it. We stopped recording. We say goodbye. Thank you very much for coming on, close on a computer, make sure every microphone was off. And we walked out of the room to look each other and go what the hell it was.

Erik K. Johnson  
We've been on a couple of those interviews. Yes. Oh,

David Jackson  
well, and this is how you wrap up. I think we're getting you if I remember, this is the end of the show. And I think I pick it up right after you said goodbye to your guests, or I think that actually might be part of this clip.

Will  
Well, thank you again, Jennifer, so much for being on the show. It was an absolute honor. And Karen, thank you for coming along on this crazy journey with me again, thank you, listener for coming along on this journey of discovery with us. We'd love to continue our conversation with you on Facebook and Instagram. So please find us there under at skeptic metaphysicians or at skeptic metaphysician.com where you can subscribe to the show or leave us a review or voicemail directly there. We really would appreciate you going to Apple podcasts or even Spotify give us a rating for the show to help the show. Grow. Even a review would be super appreciated. As always, if you know someone that would benefit from hearing the messages we shared on this show or any of our others. I hope you'll consider sharing us with that person. If you miss any of our show today not to worry. All of our shows, including this one can be found on our website skeptic metaphysician.com. I hope you've enjoyed this episode as much as we have and we'll see you on the next episode of the skeptic metaphysician until then take care

David Jackson  
not a ton of music for the sake of nothing, so I'm not even gonna bring that up.

Erik K. Johnson  
You just did.

David Jackson  
I'm not going to bring up the fact that it didn't fade out two seconds after you're done. And I say this not to poke fun. I want to know where you're getting this information. So I'm not trying to make it. How where are you? Well, I'm a skeptic. I'm a skeptic about reviews, growing your show? Yep. So how does the review where have you heard this? tie the knots together for me, because

Will  
I wish I could. It's just one of those urban legends that that are out there about podcasts that say if you if you have more reviews, more five star reviews, you'll have more people finding your show somehow. And this is a niche podcast. So it's, it's really difficult to find the audience where they live, because, you know, I'm not going to stop metaphysical bookstores all day long and hand out business cards.

Erik K. Johnson  
Will's here again.

Will  
Right? So, so, research, you listen to all kinds of podcasts and marketing for podcast shows and things and you just pick up things here and there. And, and you just try to do the best you can. And some of the best advice that everyone hears is, reviews, that's the way to grow the show. Yeah, if you think it's not, I'll take it out in a minute. Because it's too long as it is.

David Jackson  
It's it's social proof. That's that's what it does. But in terms of getting you up the charts and things like that, because I get the fact that if you type in, you know, metaphysics, and I see your show, and it has 87 reviews, and the one over here has 32 I might be, you know, more inclined to look at your show first. But as you just said, it's a tight niche there, you know, the people that like this, and my thinking is they're gonna look at both, they're probably going to subscribe to both. And then if the one is, you know, not really what they're looking for. They'll unsubscribe. Now, part of that is putting what I do into your listener, because that's what I do. I just subscribed all the podcasts. And after two episodes of going, I just unsubscribe. I don't know, Eric, what are your thoughts on reviews?

Erik K. Johnson  
I've seen study after study here now for probably the past five years. And the number one way that people discover a new podcast is word of mouth. Somebody else mentions it, whether it's mentioned on another podcast mentioned on social media, mentioned in a casual conversation, somebody you trust mentions the name of a show and you go try it out. That's the way most shows and it's not by it's not like 46% to 43%. It's like 60% to 25% number two, like far in a way people find out because other people mentioned the show. Getting I don't, I don't have any idea what my show is rated or Dave Show or your show or any show that I listened to. I have no idea what their ratings or reviews are. Because I put as much stock into a review. As I do in a movie review. Most people that hate the movie, I will probably love the movie because it's dominant. It you know, it's it's content, right? If you might think a book is good, and I think it's trash. So unless I know you and value your opinion, how do I know you're not just a troll on YouTube talking trash about my video. So I don't know that it necessarily helps you the thing I loved about your clothes, was that you talk to the listener as an individual and not a group. The thing I did not like about that, as you called me a listener. And if you and I meet in person, you're not gonna say hey, listener, good to see you. So it's I know it's a small tweak, but what I would say you know, you said guest, thanks for being here. You said what you're? What's your sidekicks, Karen. Karen. I was gonna say, Kelly, and I'm like, Kelly, that's not good, either. So you said, Karen, thanks for being here on this crazy ride. Appreciate it. And then you said and you listener, thanks for being here as well. What I would have said is Karen, thanks for being here. And Karen and I would like to thank you for being here as well, because without you what we do means nothing. So thanks for coming along for the ride. Hey, if you want to support the show, here's where you can do that. And so now I'm just kind of the three One person at the table, rather than some generic listener in the background, what I would change about your episode, and if you're a frequent listener to the show, you know, what I'm about to say is that, that call to action there at the end was crazy long, find us on Facebook, subscribe to the show, leave us a rating on Apple, or on Spotify, if you care to leave us a review while you're there, share the show with all your friends, find the shows on the website, and on and on and on. And if your goal, as you, as you told us, in your initial intake form is engagement, make your one single call to action, engagement. What do you want the listener to do? Show's over? What do you want them to go? Do the one thing you want them to do? And if that's engaged with you, get them to send you an email or sign up for your email list or whatever, follow you on Facebook, but pick one. Because if I have to make a decision on which one to do, I'm like, I don't want to make the wrong decision. Too many choices. I'm out, right? It's like when you go to the Cheesecake Factory, and it takes you 45 minutes to read the menu because it's 127 pages long. I'm like I just want potpie can't Can't you just bring me the short menu. Can I get a kid's menu? That's just one page, please. Like seriously, I don't want to make the wrong decision. Because then somebody on the table next to you gets addition, you're like, Oh, I didn't? I didn't see that on the menu. Where was that? Oh, page 68. I didn't get that far into it. You know, so shrink that down and just figure out the one thing you want your audience to do. And if it's engagement, what does that look like? So let's say it's you want them to email you in your clothes. You know, hey, I want to thank you for being here, Karen. And I love that you come by. Before we leave, I want to give a big shout out to Dave sent us an email, they've said, Hey, love your show. I'd love to see you talk about chakra sometime soon. And Dave, we're gonna get to that in an episode coming up. If you have a question for us. Shoot us an email at we'll at the skeptic.com. And we'll see if we can include you on another show. I'd love to chat with you. Shoot us an email and we'll see you next week.

Will  
I didn't know was coming, because I did hear that on your last episode.

Erik K. Johnson  
And probably every other episode we've done. Most everybody does it. So

Will  
So I did. I did want to ask you in regards to that. Is it fair to then? Because I do have lots of different calls to action? Yes. And is it something that each show could be different call to action, absolutely

Erik K. Johnson  
recommend? Yeah, that rotate them. If you have, let's say you have four primary calls to action, you want to grow your email list. You want people to follow you on Facebook, you want people to share it with their friends, word of mouth, right, we want to create word of mouth. And the fourth one is, I don't know, go see the duck on your website, whatever it is. So every, every week, he just include a different call to action, or put a call to action up front. And then put another one at the end. Studies show that about half of your audience doesn't make it all the way to the end of your episode. They stop listening when they're done doing whatever it is they're doing. So if you go on Apple podcasts, and you look at your stats, or whatever it looks, you know, you see the percentage listened. It's never 100%. Because I listen to you while I'm working out. When I'm done working out. I'm done listening to you, you know whether you're at the end or whether you're halfway through. So a lot of podcasters make the mistake of putting their call to action at the very end and only at the very end, put that up front as well. You know, before we get into the interview today with with Sarah, don't forget, you can always send us an email at will@skeptic.com. Email us anytime you'd like, you know, big shout out to Dave for sending us his email this week. And I read that before we jump into the interview, but a call to action upfront and then it could be a different call to action, or the same call to action at the end.

Will  
So that's a great point. Because I've heard again, one of these urban legends that you hear about podcasting best practices. But sometimes if you do a call to action at the at the beginning, is it kind of like your You haven't even heard my first question yet. And I'm already asking you to do something doesn't have to turn people off.

Erik K. Johnson  
If it's if it's only an ask if it's an offer for some value, a nice call to action at the beginning is like if I was doing my show, I would say Hey, before we jump into it today, I just want to let you know I have a free resource for you again, I've created the 17 most powerful podcast interview questions ever. So when you're interviewing podcasters you're armed with great questions that get your guests to tell stories and you can get it over at podcast talent coach.com It's right there on the homepage. Just click the button and you can get it so go grab that and It'll help you with your next interview. Alright, let's get into talking to Dave Jackson School of podcasting. And we're going to talk all about, you know, the best microphone for the money. Got it. Okay. So if I just say, hey, follow me on Facebook. And that's the, that's the call to action, like, it's all for me and nothing for you, then it's, you're probably not going to get much bang for your buck. But if you give them some benefit for your call to action, hey, if you want to stay up to speed on all of the people that we interview, we send out a note a day before every interview, so you can sit in on the interview live to get that sign up over at my website.com. And I'll send that to you every day before we do the interview. Okay, benefit.

David Jackson  
Yeah, the one thing that I was like, well, at least you did this, and that was your last call to action was your website address? Because I'm like when all else fails, definitely mentioned that. But I was with Eric, it was like, do this and then that and then I was because the only time and I still don't recommend it. I've seen people do what I call a website sandwich, where you'll go, hey, the website is you know sceptic Maleficent. Met, I cannot see Eric, I can't say that we're you did a much better. You can tell you got yours on radio, I can't say metaphysician.com. And, you know, then you see, that's where you can find my social media and my email again, website, blah, blah, blah, blah. But even that, you know, just the one call to action is much clearer in that. The one thing I wanted to ask is, when did you create a members area because I realized this episodes from January. And when I went to your website, you have a members only spot and I was like, I didn't hear a peep about that. And I thought well maybe made that after this episode came out?

Will  
I did I think I did after that. It is how can I put this, one of the things that that we this is gonna sound so incredibly self serving. We want to, we want to get to help everyone. Not only to experience these things that we're talking about, but also the our guests on the show. We want to help them drive business if we can. So we're big proponents of the rising tide raises all ships, right. So the members only section is really meant for people who are our guests offer discounted prices for those services or the products or whatever. And if you sign up for our community, you can actually access that and then you have like a 50% off of past life regression or something along those lines. And we've put that on our call to action at the end. On recent episodes, the problem is it's made it even longer. So we're working on making shorter now.

David Jackson  
There we go. I just wanted because I saw that and was like, huh, but the the website, I'm going to do I'm I'm ramping up, I should have practiced this earlier again. Skeptic metaphysician.com. Look at me, I'm getting better already, is the website. And when I saw this, I was like, Oh, somebody's been listening to my show, because that's a pod page, website. It and so you've, you've got all the great links to subscribe and follow right there in the front. You got your social laptop, and that's where I saw the members only. And I see when I went to that. It asked for a password. And I was like I need to ask about that. The the one thing and I think you can tweak this in pod pages you have your about page here is your your opening page, which again, is that the same thing that was in your, your podcast, it's also in your footer, which just ends up looking a little weird, maybe not a lot weird. But it's like, you end up with this weird extra space over here that just has nothing going on. As your your website is primarily your your colors are black, purple and white. You can go into pod page and customize your little button in the bottom right hand corner, your little microphone to match that again, I always have to find something to nitpick. And I was like God, that'd be the next big thing. But you've got you've got your reviews, you've got your blog, and the about page the one thing even after visiting the website, we still have no clue who Karen is. Like there's nothing and we have no clue. I know. So I there's a section in pod page where you can add an about page about the hosts and then actually have that that'll be on the front page if you wanted to and things like that. But you know, people want to get to know you they you're the host and you're both there and you're asking great questions in your app interacting but you know, there if there's if there's any kind of street cred that you would want to throw here and if not, why did you get into this and what's your passion about it? Things like that, but that was the one thing I after going here when Eric said that earlier, I was like, I still have no clue who Karen is. It's just some some really nice person that goes, Oh, wow. And then that's really good. She asked really good questions. She's the one that said, What did that feel like? I mean, that wasn't

Erik K. Johnson  
great. Or does she? Maybe she doesn't exist?

David Jackson  
Maybe it's a robotic voice. But, Eric, what are your thoughts on the on the website,

Erik K. Johnson  
I kind of liked the black background white text purple motif. It kind of fits the metaphysics, vibe of the show, I thought that was pretty cool. On the episode page itself, I was, I'd like to see the player above the fold. If you can click click an episode, Dave. Any episode, pick an episode. So here, I'd like to see that player kind of above the fold, so I didn't have to scroll down to find it. I do love the huge Subscribe buttons, Apple, Spotify, all of those look fantastic. And I do agree with Dave, this little thing that keeps popping up down here, at the very bottom on each page just kind of follows me around. And I'm not really sure why. So that I found a little odd. And the other thing was the membership. I didn't know I was like, Well, how come I'm not a member? And what what do I have to do, and I can't even figure out what I get to be a member. And so that was I was a little lost there. But otherwise, I thought it I liked the clean look of it. And as much as Dave doesn't like the the the big empty space there on the right side of your page. To me, I like the clean look, it doesn't look like I have a little bitty column in a big thing because there are parts elsewhere on the page. The recent episodes on the right, all of that good stuff. So I liked the clean look of it, I liked the black, the white on black, it kind of fits the theme of the show. I love the episodes page where I can pick out any episode that looks really clean and allows me to browse through variety of episodes all at one time, you have a nice standard template for each guest. So I know exactly where to look to figure out who the guest is and what we're talking about. I like all of that good stuff. So overall, I think the website is solid, just a couple of things there that to nitpick about, like Dave was saying, not too bad, I like it.

Will  
Thanks, and Paige is such a great product that I steal it, you can do so much with it, I still don't know half of it, I'm sure. So a lot of things that you're talking about, I need to dig into it and figure out how to do because when I add the video, because some of these have video components to it, and I add the video from YouTube, and it will put the video up at the very top of that of the picture that it has. I don't think I have a way of putting that player above the fold. But I could be wrong. I need to take a look at it and see how that all works out.

David Jackson  
Yeah, how it works with the with the video definitely puts it at the top, which is kind of odd, because you're like, well, people may not know it's actually an audio component. And they just clicked on the video because it's there, which means you'll get more YouTube views. But if you're looking for audio downloads, that might be an issue. And you the there's a summary is what we're actually seeing when we click on a, you know, an episode Yeah, in fact, there's one with the video. This I believe is the summary field in pod page. And then it puts the player. So if we wanted this, I think if you leave the summary blank, it's either going to do one of two things, it's going to move the player up, or it'll take your first paragraph of your description and put it where the summary is, I forget which one it is. But it is it's very simple and very cool. And speaking of self promotion, go to learn pod page.com. And you can learn pod page for free. So but yeah, that was the only thing I was like I would add an about page about you guys, you know, add one and you can have like, here's the the about page and then you could just either add it to this page and then say, you know about Will, Will is this guy he's you know, blah blah blah and about Karen and Karen is a such and such that does such and such and that's how she got involved and blah blah blah. So that would be the only thing I can think of that way if somebody Google's you and Google's your name in theory this should be in the mix then which then give you some more Google juice so right but all in all, I really I was trying to think about like what was the thing I would change the most and I think it'd be the intro of this particular episode was the and again it wasn't horrible. I was just like and this needed to be shortened in like Eric was saying the that one phrase of you that would have been a great opener and things like that but on all the audio I thought sounded great. There weren't any you know, plosives or anything that were annoying or volume swells or static or you know you weren't recording in a you know bathtub in a tunnel you know kind of situation going on I thought That sounded great. And your audio levels are fine. So, Eric, any other final thoughts for we'll as we start to wrap things up,

Erik K. Johnson  
I thought it was a solid episode. The interview was great questions were solid. There was a good story arc and nice momentum. And the it felt like the story kept moving forward, as we discussed with her and I love your character development. I'd like to hear a little bit more out of Karen. In terms of where she stands, which side is she a skeptic as well? Or is she a wholehearted believer? We don't really know a whole lot about her but so continue to develop her character. I agree the intro needed to be shortened up a little bit. Great content, just tighten it up a bit. And let's get off and running sooner than later. But overall, you know, we're picking at some small things here. You have a great show. You do a nice job interviewing you everybody had a good amount of mic time. And it didn't feel like it dragged it was it had really solid momentum, which long interviews have a tendency start going in circles, and you don't fight that at all? So overall, great show.

Will  
Oh, thank you. That means an awful lot. I really appreciate it very much.

David Jackson  
Did you have any final questions for us?

Will  
I've been asking you to like go for the most part. But I guess the biggest the biggest question is for me is are you guys subscription subscribers to the show? That's what I want to know.

Will  
I am not. I'm totally kidding. I'm totally kidding. Speaking of awkward pauses

Will  
No, I really appreciate the time that you guys have put into it. I have listened to not just the show. But But Dave, your your other shows as well. Bobcats, rodeo and all that kind of? Because I do I'm trying to make the best product I can. And you guys have great gave great feedback. So I really appreciate it.

Erik K. Johnson  
Absolutely, we appreciate you being here. We'll make sure at the end of your show, take that listener to wherever you want them to go pick that one thing and get off and running. You have a great show. You're setting them up nicely. I'd like to see you close the deal and take them to that next step with you. Thanks for being here. Appreciate you taking the time with us today.

Will  
Thanks for having me.

David Jackson  
And Eric, where can people find you?

Erik K. Johnson  
By me anytime you'd like over at podcast talent coach.com All my shows are there and worksheets and all kinds of fun stuff. And Dave, how about you?

David Jackson  
You can find me at school of podcasting.com we'll once again where can we find you?

Will  
Find me at skeptic metaphysician.com

David Jackson  
And this is now our one call to action. If you'd like to find yourself right here in Will's chair, simply go to podcast review show.com/review Me and we would love to help you again, find the things that you're doing right so you can do more of that and find those things that need a little bit of polish and, you know, polish them up a bit so that they're not so rough around the edges. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you again real soon with another episode of the podcast Review Show.